Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što sada?

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11 godina
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Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što sada?

svaki kancelarijski službenik i/ili radnik i/ili zaposlenik će raditi s onim što mu je servirano od strane (posebno srednjeg - najgoreg zamislivog ljudskog šljama) menadžmenta (koji pak jednako nema pojma ni o čemu nego se oslanja na "stručnjake uže specijalnosti") i šutjeti. za samostalnost i odabir mora pokrenuti vlastiti posao. nemre bit jebnostavnije. 

I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Moj PC  
3 0 hvala 0
11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Envy kaže...
Friday kaže...
* * *

 

Meni je fascinantna ta opcinjenost ljudi time kako ih MS spijunira i "krade osobne podatke". U danasnje vrijeme kad google zna apsolutno sve o gotovo svim zivim bicima na planeti i zna gdje se svi ljudi sa android telefonima krecu, sami DOBROVOLJNO na fejsbuk stavljamo slike sebe i svoje djece, pisemo privatne stvari i tko zna sta... Njih brine to sto MS skuplja dijagnosticke podatke kako se OS koristi.

 

To mi iskreno više liči kao na neku bolest - tipa, usađen strah. Ljudi će nekad knjige pisati "bio jedno jedan Windowso update koji je sijao satrah kompjutariša, a strah je izlazila iz monitora ravno u zjenice kompjuteraša... godinama i godinana a da to polako nisu ni primjetili" :-D

Pravi sisttem admin / netowrk admin, da je da je netki stručnjak, na sam S nema šta da se žali. Ako se žali onda nije prvi sisadmin :-D
Čim počne da se žališ na OS onda je to obični korisnik.

 Znaci gutaj sve sto ti M$ pripremi?

Pravi admini ce objasniti poslodavcu, da sada vise PRO licencu u vecini slucajeva nije dovoljna nego im treba Enterprise koja ce se placati na godisnjoj razini i u kojoj nema Candycrasha, telemetrije i ostalih gluposti.
A onda ce da si smanji trud gurni vecinu servera na Azure i uvesti Offlice 365 i ostak godine samo deranje po zesticama od ranog jutra.

11 godina
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Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što sada?

Pazi strucnjaka - lik predlaze enterprise licencu da bi se candy crush maknuo iz start menija. Evo meni je neugodno...

 

I ne samo to. Jos je i protiv cloud based rjesenja. Sve bi trebalo biti on-prem po tebi???

Freak Show Inc.
Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 12:31 (Friday).
Moj PC  
1 1 hvala 0
11 godina
offline
Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Friday kaže...

Pazi strucnjaka - lik predlaze enterprise licencu da bi se candy crush maknuo iz start menija. Evo meni je neugodno...

 Uvijek mi je drago vidjeti izvlacenje iz konteksta, eto u americi na enterprise nemas ni video reklame kao ni reklame u windows exploreru.

Sto se tice telemetrije ona ne moze zamijeniti dobar quality control koji je otpusten, da moze onda bi i radilo sve kako treba.

Rezu troskove na svemu zivome i pretvorili su korisnike u beta testere, a neki ovdje umiru od divljenja, njima je i Windows 8 poluproizvod bio 3. svjetsko cudo.

 

Za razliku od tebe radio sam u firmi koja ima IT budget 1 milijardu dolara godisnje i vidio sam kako exchange na azuru je ispadao bar jednom mjesecno, sve je to divno i krasno dok ne krenu gnjevni mailovi IT-u od managementa.
Da smijem zbog NDA copy pastati, poslao bi, tipa Microsoft je zeznuo update na exchangu, nakon 12 sati, vracaju na prijasnju verziju i sad bi trebalo raditi. To ne racunam ni fizicke ispadne gdje jednom mjesecno jedan dio svijeta nema uslugu u toj kompaniji.

I nitko ne kaze da sam protiv Clouda hybrid Cloud mi je ok, ali potpuna migracija i konsolidacija konkretno na Azure je bio samo za uzeti kokice i citati probleme u CC-u.

 

I ne kuzim tu maniju hvaljanja Windowsa 10, puno stvari na njemu je lose, dosta stvari od pocetaka su poslusali ljude i ispravili tako da ko zna mozda za koju godinu bude vise manje ok OS.
A za starije ljude koji vise ne rade, oni ionako imaju manje problema sa nekom linux distribucijom nego sa Windowsima 10.

Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 12:47 (Bono).
11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Envy kaže...
..

Pravi sisttem admin / netowrk admin, da je da je netki stručnjak, na sam S nema šta da se žali. Ako se žali onda nije prvi sisadmin :-D
Čim počne da se žališ na OS onda je to obični korisnik.

 - korisnik ili (ob)juzer .. čak razlikujem te dvije kategorije, korisnik je  ok, on koristi (i to je to, nešto radi i ne zanima ga niti što zna o ostatku) ali ob-juzeri su oni koji su glasni, pa tad dođemo do kvartovskih majstora, gurua, čarobnjaka.. ili fahidiota, koji uvjek znaju najbolje i sve, no istovremeno se stalno žale ako ne na telemetriju ili da nešto ne radi.. što je direktna kontradikcija od onih koji znaju jer njima svaki OS, app radi..

-a strah.. da, ljudi u strahu se boje svega, mraka.. tako je to s prosvjetljenjem ili simboločki, (ne)znanjem :)

-meni je svaki OS dobar-odličan, radi.. osim reactos :)

C64/TurboModul-OpenSourceProject.org.cn.部分作品为网上收集整理,供开源爱好者学习使用
11 godina
offline
Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Bono kaže...

 Uvijek mi je drago vidjeti izvlacenje iz konteksta, eto u americi na enterprise nemas ni video reklame kao ni reklame u windows exploreru.

Sto se tice telemetrije ona ne moze zamijeniti dobar quality control koji je otpusten, da moze onda bi i radilo sve kako treba.

Rezu troskove na svemu zivome i pretvorili su korisnike u beta testere, a neki ovdje umiru od divljenja, njima je i Windows 8 poluproizvod bio 3. svjetsko cudo.

 

Provedem uz windows u prosjeku 8-10 sati dnevno. Vikendom mozda 4-5. I to sve na razlicitim strojevima. U zadnjih recimo 5 godina ne pamtim da sam ikakav znacajan problem imao sa windowsima. Na novom NUC-u mi se update "zaglavio" pa mi je kod svakog restarta pisalo ono "updating...". To je jedino spomena vrijedno i morao sam napraviti reinstall. Apsolutno nista drugo. Slusajuci tako neke ljude ovdje po forumu covjek bi dosao do zakljucka kako je zapravo mala vjerojatnost da ces uopce uspjeti bootati. A kad bootas pali ti se kamera i netko iz redmonda te snima i pazljivo biljezi sta radis. Ono BAS NISTA ne valja.

Freak Show Inc.
11 godina
offline
Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Friday kaže...
Bono kaže...

 Uvijek mi je drago vidjeti izvlacenje iz konteksta, eto u americi na enterprise nemas ni video reklame kao ni reklame u windows exploreru.

Sto se tice telemetrije ona ne moze zamijeniti dobar quality control koji je otpusten, da moze onda bi i radilo sve kako treba.

Rezu troskove na svemu zivome i pretvorili su korisnike u beta testere, a neki ovdje umiru od divljenja, njima je i Windows 8 poluproizvod bio 3. svjetsko cudo.

 

Provedem uz windows u prosjeku 8-10 sati dnevno. Vikendom mozda 4-5. I to sve na razlicitim strojevima. U zadnjih recimo 5 godina ne pamtim da sam ikakav znacajan problem imao sa windowsima. Na novom NUC-u mi se update "zaglavio" pa mi je kod svakog restarta pisalo ono "updating...". To je jedino spomena vrijedno i morao sam napraviti reinstall. Apsolutno nista drugo. Slusajuci tako neke ljude ovdje po forumu covjek bi dosao do zakljucka kako je zapravo mala vjerojatnost da ces uopce uspjeti bootati. A kad bootas pali ti se kamera i netko iz redmonda te snima i pazljivo biljezi sta radis. Ono BAS NISTA ne valja.

 Ja isto na svom Dellu XPS nisam imao problema sa Windowsima 10, pa mogu zakljuciti da su savrseni. To sto je desetak Ryzen i Threadripper Windowsa 10 se raspalo to cu zanemariti, da se ovdje neki ne bi osjecali ugrozeno.

A na prijasnjem XPS-u se u jednom trenutku nisu htjeli upgradati windowsi jer je rekao da je nemoguce upgradati windowse na usb sticku, naravno prepoznat je NVME disk kao usb stick, to je isto regedit rijesio, ali da je savrseno nije.

Isto tako da sam nesto bitno trebao napraviti na laptopu, a on se bas sada hoce updatati, to su bile prve verzije win 10.

 

Inace sve je ok, toliko je dobar da je nakon 4 i pol godine uspio doci do 50% market shara, a MAC OS je u tom periodu dobio 3 postotna boda veci market share.

Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 13:03 (Bono).
11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Bono kaže...
* * *

 Znaci gutaj sve sto ti M$ pripremi?

 * * *

Nema tu gutaj što ti sve MS pospremi, ako su tajnica - gutaj i ne pričaj puno njego radi posao na datoj ti alatki.
Netwk/adminu niti jedan MS ne može napraviti problem (koliko god Useri) koliko jedan tehnički direktor koji nije upućen u struku pa ti kupi Router bez dovoljnog broja interfacea, pa onda Routaj na sub-interface. Što god iza ti "zabio", bilo koji OS, ne smao Win, pa onda kada pogeldaš topologiju mreže uhvatiš se za glavu pa onda skontaš da ti MS nije ni na kraj pameti ni faking juzeri koji su iza.
Windowski k'o windowsi, uvijek rade i takvi su kakvi su. Netko se želi? Čuo sam ima i takvih.

 

Friday kaže...

Pazi strucnjaka - lik predlaze enterprise licencu da bi se candy crush maknuo iz start menija. Evo meni je neugodno...

 

I ne samo to. Jos je i protiv cloud based rjesenja. Sve bi trebalo biti on-prem po tebi???

Oplaka od kad sam pročitao ovo markirano.

ihush kaže...
Envy kaže...
..

Pravi sisttem admin / netowrk admin, da je da je netki stručnjak, na sam S nema šta da se žali. Ako se žali onda nije prvi sisadmin :-D
Čim počne da se žališ na OS onda je to obični korisnik.

 - korisnik ili (ob)juzer .. čak razlikujem te dvije kategorije, korisnik je  ok, on koristi (i to je to, nešto radi i ne zanima ga niti što zna o ostatku) ali ob-juzeri su oni koji su glasni, pa tad dođemo do kvartovskih majstora, gurua, čarobnjaka.. ili fahidiota, koji uvjek znaju najbolje i sve, no istovremeno se stalno žale ako ne na telemetriju ili da nešto ne radi.. što je direktna kontradikcija od onih koji znaju jer njima svaki OS, app radi..

-a strah.. da, ljudi u strahu se boje svega, mraka.. tako je to s prosvjetljenjem ili simboločki, (ne)znanjem :)

-meni je svaki OS dobar-odličan, radi.. osim reactos :)

"Neću ja te Windowse" Nešto mi ne radi u tim Windowsu 10"
"Ššto vam ne radi?"
"Pa ne znam ja čuo sam da ne rade."



"Tehčni konsultantu, čuo sam da mi novi Windowsi čitaju misli"
"Zašto to mislite?"
"Pa valjda kroz monior nekim zrakama, tako sam čuo".

Plačem od smijeha

 

   

11 godina
offline
Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Bono kaže...
Friday kaže...
Bono kaže...

 Uvijek mi je drago vidjeti izvlacenje iz konteksta, eto u americi na enterprise nemas ni video reklame kao ni reklame u windows exploreru.

Sto se tice telemetrije ona ne moze zamijeniti dobar quality control koji je otpusten, da moze onda bi i radilo sve kako treba.

Rezu troskove na svemu zivome i pretvorili su korisnike u beta testere, a neki ovdje umiru od divljenja, njima je i Windows 8 poluproizvod bio 3. svjetsko cudo.

 

Provedem uz windows u prosjeku 8-10 sati dnevno. Vikendom mozda 4-5. I to sve na razlicitim strojevima. U zadnjih recimo 5 godina ne pamtim da sam ikakav znacajan problem imao sa windowsima. Na novom NUC-u mi se update "zaglavio" pa mi je kod svakog restarta pisalo ono "updating...". To je jedino spomena vrijedno i morao sam napraviti reinstall. Apsolutno nista drugo. Slusajuci tako neke ljude ovdje po forumu covjek bi dosao do zakljucka kako je zapravo mala vjerojatnost da ces uopce uspjeti bootati. A kad bootas pali ti se kamera i netko iz redmonda te snima i pazljivo biljezi sta radis. Ono BAS NISTA ne valja.

 Ja isto na svom Dellu XPS nisam imao problema sa Windowsima 10, pa mogu zakljuciti da su savrseni. To sto je desetak Ryzen i Threadripper Windowsa 10 se raspalo to cu zanemariti, da se ovdje neki ne bi osjecali ugrozeno.

A na prijasnjem XPS-u se u jednom trenutku nisu htjeli upgradati windowsi jer je rekao da je nemoguce upgradati windowse na usb sticku, naravno prepoznat je NVME disk kao usb stick, to je isto regedit rijesio, ali da je savrseno nije.

 -da, neznanje... tad su svi drugi krivi, zar ne? :)

 

ili ... imamo li iste win? ja-ti-ostali? .. ako je uzrok problema win, tad logički-posljedično svi s istim win moraju imati isti problem, determinizam. OK? .. ako imamo isti win, ako ti imaš problem, ja ne.. što to govori? To ti kaže, da je problem nešto durgo-treće.. možda bug u AMDu, možda driver, možda (ne)znanje 'majstora' koji je slagao-instalirao-podešavao? .. nemoguće? Razmisli. Ako su svi ostali dijelovi formule isti, isti os, isti soft-bios-driver.. tad je ono što razlikuje računalo koje radi vs koje ne radi ili problematično upravo ili HW ili juzer-majstor s postavkama, ili treći soft .. no tad nije krivica OSa, neovisno bio to dos, win, lin, w7-10 ili bilo koji deseti. Kad to znaš, tad si tek spreman za prvi korak u pravom smjeru, tj ako ne znaš u kojem smjeru putovati tad je vjerojatnije da ćeš krenuti u pogrešnom smjeru tj ako uzrok tražiš na pogrešnom mjestu, tad nećeš otkloniti problem, osim slučajnost-sreća i sl. a to nije znanje. Zato svaki posao treba raditi onaj tko to zna, dok loto možemi igrati na sreću.

 

-upitaj se... kako to da jedno računalo radi, drugo ne radi.. u čemu je razlika? Osim klasičnog kvara HWa (a to nije nikako problem softa) čista logika ti dalje nameće odgovore, samo idi redom, eliminacijom i tad će ti računalo raditi, naravno ako to znaš, ili trebaš nekoga tko to zna, ne nekog tko misli da zna i to ćeš primijetiti recimo po tome da će nakon što pravi znalac sredi isto računalo, to računalo raditi onako kako je predviđeno. Samo ispravno + odgovarajuće podešeno uz pravilnu upotrebu radi 100% dobro, sve ostalo nije 100% i u tome ti je odgovor-uzrok. Determinizam + logika, osnova rada null-jedinica.

C64/TurboModul-OpenSourceProject.org.cn.部分作品为网上收集整理,供开源爱好者学习使用
Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 13:02 (ihush).
9 godina
suspendiran
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Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što sada?

Možda ipak od sutra prestaje podrška? 

 
2 0 hvala 0
11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
ludizao kaže...

Možda ipak od sutra prestaje podrška? 

 -prisjeti se koliko puta se postponalo gašenje win-xp.. godinama :) + timezona, hr nije usa, sve bitno se desi +18h ili datum+1.

+ serveri će i dalje biti bar neko vrijeme online dostupni, samo će ms prestati izdavati updateove + nije nevažno koja licenca.

C64/TurboModul-OpenSourceProject.org.cn.部分作品为网上收集整理,供开源爱好者学习使用
Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 13:07 (ihush).
11 godina
offline
Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
ihush kaže...
Bono kaže...
Friday kaže...
Bono kaže...

 Uvijek mi je drago vidjeti izvlacenje iz konteksta, eto u americi na enterprise nemas ni video reklame kao ni reklame u windows exploreru.

Sto se tice telemetrije ona ne moze zamijeniti dobar quality control koji je otpusten, da moze onda bi i radilo sve kako treba.

Rezu troskove na svemu zivome i pretvorili su korisnike u beta testere, a neki ovdje umiru od divljenja, njima je i Windows 8 poluproizvod bio 3. svjetsko cudo.

 

Provedem uz windows u prosjeku 8-10 sati dnevno. Vikendom mozda 4-5. I to sve na razlicitim strojevima. U zadnjih recimo 5 godina ne pamtim da sam ikakav znacajan problem imao sa windowsima. Na novom NUC-u mi se update "zaglavio" pa mi je kod svakog restarta pisalo ono "updating...". To je jedino spomena vrijedno i morao sam napraviti reinstall. Apsolutno nista drugo. Slusajuci tako neke ljude ovdje po forumu covjek bi dosao do zakljucka kako je zapravo mala vjerojatnost da ces uopce uspjeti bootati. A kad bootas pali ti se kamera i netko iz redmonda te snima i pazljivo biljezi sta radis. Ono BAS NISTA ne valja.

 Ja isto na svom Dellu XPS nisam imao problema sa Windowsima 10, pa mogu zakljuciti da su savrseni. To sto je desetak Ryzen i Threadripper Windowsa 10 se raspalo to cu zanemariti, da se ovdje neki ne bi osjecali ugrozeno.

A na prijasnjem XPS-u se u jednom trenutku nisu htjeli upgradati windowsi jer je rekao da je nemoguce upgradati windowse na usb sticku, naravno prepoznat je NVME disk kao usb stick, to je isto regedit rijesio, ali da je savrseno nije.

 -da, neznanje... tad su svi drugi krivi, zar ne? :)

 

ili ... imamo li iste win? ja-ti-ostali? .. ako je uzrok problema win, tad logički-posljedično svi s istim win moraju imati isti problem, determinizam. OK? .. ako imamo isti win, ako ti imaš problem, ja ne.. što to govori? To ti kaže, da je problem nešto durgo-treće.. možda bug u AMDu, možda driver, možda (ne)znanje 'majstora' koji je slagao-instalirao-podešavao? .. nemoguće? Razmisli. Ako su svi ostali dijelovi formule isti, isti os, isti soft-bios-driver.. tad je ono što razlikuje računalo koje radi vs koje ne radi ili problematično upravo ili HW ili juzer-majstor s postavkama, ili treći soft .. no tad nije krivica OSa, neovisno bio to dos, win, lin, w7-10 ili bilo koji deseti. Kad to znaš, tad si tek spreman za prvi korak u pravom smjeru, tj ako ne znaš u kojem smjeru putovati tad je vjerojatnije da ćeš krenuti u pogrešnom smjeru tj ako uzrok tražiš na pogrešnom mjestu, tad nećeš otkloniti problem, osim slučajnost-sreća i sl. a to nije znanje. Zato svaki posao treba raditi onaj tko to zna, dok loto možemi igrati na sreću.

 

-upitaj se... kako to da jedno računalo radi, drugo ne radi.. u čemu je razlika? Osim klasičnog kvara HWa (a to nije nikako problem softa) čista logika ti dalje nameće odgovore, samo idi redom, eliminacijom i tad će ti računalo raditi, naravno ako to znaš, ili trebaš nekoga tko to zna, ne nekog tko misli da zna i to ćeš primijetiti recimo po tome da će nakon što pravi znalac sredi isto računalo, to računalo raditi onako kako je predviđeno. Samo ispravno + odgovarajuće podešeno uz pravilnu upotrebu radi 100% dobro, sve ostalo nije 100% i u tome ti je odgovor-uzrok. Determinizam + logika, osnova rada null-jedinica.

 znaci tvojom logikom kad je prije godinu dana update razvalio 5% ukupnih Windows 10 PC-a to nije problem OS-a? Pretpostavljam da je Microsoft povukao update iz dosade, a ne zato sto je bio problem.
Ili kad su sa updatom slucajno podaci izbrisani to je kriv korisnik? Cinjenica je i dalje da je quality control na Windowsima 10 daleko losiji nego na 7, o tome se i prije puno vise pricalo, mislim da je i jedan quality manager opisao kako su prije svaki update fizicki testirali na razlicitim konfiguracijama, a danas provuku kroz virtualce i to bi trebalo raditi. Isto kad Microsoft sa updatom posalje na Surface 4, Surface 3 drivere opet je do korisnika, nije do Microsofta.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/worst-windows-10-version-ever-microsofts-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-october/

Ovaj bi se isto trebao vama javiti da mu objasnite da nije do Microsofta nego do vas.

Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 13:15 (Bono).
8 godina
offline
Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Friday kaže...
gorguc kaže...

 

Evo konkretan problem, kojeg nisam uspio rješit na novom laptopu (HP Probook 650 G3). Deinstalacija drivera, clean install windowsa, svi savjeti s neta koje sam pronašao. Različiti fontovi i mutan tekst. Pogledaj slike u 3. postu na temi, pola programa mi izgleda tako.

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Business-Notebooks/Some-windows-Blurry-or-fuzzy/td-p/6674885

Jučer sam u rukama imao susjedov laptop (također HP, drugi model, al ne znam koji) i vidim da ima isti problem.

 

Posalji privatnu poruku forumasu CyberDemonVZ, on je imao taj problem. Doduse ne bas taj isti ali slican - nije znao gdje da na stolu stavi slusalice a da mu ne naruse izgled cijelog setupa.

 Kupio sam bežićne.

 

A za mutan font je kriv DPI ili scaling:

https://www.drivereasy.com/knowledge/solved-windows-10-blurry-text/

Battlelog: [G] CyberDemonVZ
11 godina
offline
Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Bono kaže...
..

 znaci tvojom logikom kad je prije godinu dana update razvalio 5% ukupnih Windows 10 PC-a to nije problem OS-a? Pretpostavljam da je Microsoft povukao update iz dosade, a ne zato sto je bio problem.
Ili kad su sa updatom slucajno podaci izbrisani to je kriv korisnik? Cinjenica je i dalje da je quality control na Windowsima 10 daleko losiji nego na 7, o tome se i prije puno vise pricalo, mislim da je i jedan quality manager opisao kako su prije svaki update fizicki testirali na razlicitim konfiguracijama, a danas provuku kroz virtualce i to bi trebalo raditi.

 -ne, to je propust MSa, idiota.. OK? Tko radi, griješi.. (ja ne griješim!) :)

-no, što je tema? nepogršivost nekog softa, MSa? Kakve to ima veze s tvojim problemima (opisanima gore.. + krati citate kad nisu potrebni, kad se nadovezuju..). Npr što ako je za nove cpu-mbo problem driver kao što je s nvidia i sl.. jer izađe novi build npr 1909 (počelo od 1703..) tj ms gasi stari drivermodel wddm-1.0 koji je tu od XPa kao i to da izbacuje stari support npr drivere za printere.. no to nije problem osa, kvaliteta i sl. (dio koji mi se ne sviđa, politika biza, interesi i sl.. no tu ne mogu ništa. Ti možeš?) ... ili koristiš win ili ne koristiš, ili koristi koji želiš os ili nemoj.. ali ne možeš navoditi besmislice, tj daj argument, kako to da ti imaš problem ja ne i po tebi je kriv OS mada imamo isti-identičan, jer samo je jedan win, nemam ja njeki bolji-turbo koji radi, nije mi b.gates kum ili netjak pa da mi preko veze da bolji win. Tad razmisli, što je uzrok problema o kojima u postovima prije njurgaš, dok ovo s updateom, idiotizmom u hardkodiranom pathu dokumenta .. to je bug-greška-propust. Kažem li nešto drugačije? citat? No što je tema, što piše u prošlom citatu? Što to ne valja? Telemetrija? Uvjeti EULAe? .. beskorisno. Stabilnost-rad?

C64/TurboModul-OpenSourceProject.org.cn.部分作品为网上收集整理,供开源爱好者学习使用
11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
ihush kaže...
Bono kaže...
..

 znaci tvojom logikom kad je prije godinu dana update razvalio 5% ukupnih Windows 10 PC-a to nije problem OS-a? Pretpostavljam da je Microsoft povukao update iz dosade, a ne zato sto je bio problem.
Ili kad su sa updatom slucajno podaci izbrisani to je kriv korisnik? Cinjenica je i dalje da je quality control na Windowsima 10 daleko losiji nego na 7, o tome se i prije puno vise pricalo, mislim da je i jedan quality manager opisao kako su prije svaki update fizicki testirali na razlicitim konfiguracijama, a danas provuku kroz virtualce i to bi trebalo raditi.

 -ne, to je propust MSa, idiota.. OK? Tko radi, griješi.. (ja ne griješim!) :)

-no, što je tema? nepogršivost nekog softa, MSa? Kakve to ima veze s tvojim problemima (opisanima gore.. + krati citate kad nisu potrebni, kad se nadovezuju..). Npr što ako je za nove cpu-mbo problem driver kao što je s nvidia i sl.. jer izađe novi build npr 1909 (počelo od 1703..) tj ms gasi stari drivermodel wddm-1.0 koji je tu od XPa kao i to da izbacuje stari support npr drivere za printere.. no to nije problem osa, kvaliteta i sl. (dio koji mi se ne sviđa, politika biza, interesi i sl.. no tu ne mogu ništa. Ti možeš?) ... ili koristiš win ili ne koristiš, ili koristi koji želiš os ili nemoj.. ali ne možeš navoditi besmislice, tj daj argument, kako to da ti imaš problem ja ne i po tebi je kriv OS mada imamo isti-identičan, jer samo je jedan win, nemam ja njeki bolji-turbo koji radi, nije mi b.gates kum ili netjak pa da mi preko veze da bolji win. Tad razmisli, što je uzrok problema o kojima u postovima prije njurgaš, dok ovo s updateom, idiotizmom u hardkodiranom pathu dokumenta .. to je bug-greška-propust. Kažem li nešto drugačije? citat? No što je tema, što piše u prošlom citatu? Što to ne valja? Telemetrija? Uvjeti EULAe? .. beskorisno. Stabilnost-rad?

 aha kuzim znaci ako mi se od par stotina kompjutera do 10% skrsilo trebao bi sutiti o tome i reci kako je sve super? I dalje tvrdim da je to bar 8 postotnih poena vise nego sa windowsima 7. Sto se tice razloga nije me briga do cega je, skrsilo se popravilo se, ali to samo umanjuje kvalitetu OS-a tj updatova u odnosu na Windows 7.

Da sa toliko problema telemetrija je beskorisna, svakih 6 mjeseci updatovi su isto idiotizam, na home verziji nedostatak lokalnom account bez vadenja kabela je idiotizam. Jos dosta godina moraju usavrsavati win 10 da bi po stabilnosti bio na razini sedmice, brzina ok brzi je na modernom hardwaru, ali po stabilnosti jos je daleko od toga, dovoljno i govori marketshare koji je i dalje iznad 30%.

 

Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 13:36 (Bono).
10 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s

hmmm... i ja radim u tvrtki koja ima IT budžet od milijardi $ pa ?

 

svi idemo na Exchange Online i jedva čekam, a mogu mislit da i Exchange admini jedva čekaju... nema jebada s manjkom prostora, dismountanjem baza i shrinkanjem, nema zajebancije s backupovima, ode ti čovjek - njegov mailbox pretvoriš u sherani i držiš bez licence, njegovu daš novome...

 

99.9% SLA dostupnosti, a dosegnuli su i 99,99% već odavno...

 

daš link za 10 mj. 2018 i nikako se ne mogu sjetiti da mi je tada nešto tako drakonski crklo da sam morao hitno povlačiti update...

 

inače update za servere, NIKADA ne stavljaš na produkcijske servere bar dok ne pređu 2-3 tjedna, a dotada googlaš KB problem...

 

uglavnom, nisu u M$ "cveće", ali nisu ni izdaleka jedini krivci za IT sranja...

Ju je je? Je ju je!
11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Stric_Jura kaže...

hmmm... i ja radim u tvrtki koja ima IT budžet od milijardi $ pa ?

 

svi idemo na Exchange Online i jedva čekam, a mogu mislit da i Exchange admini jedva čekaju... nema jebada s manjkom prostora, dismountanjem baza i shrinkanjem, nema zajebancije s backupovima, ode ti čovjek - njegov mailbox pretvoriš u sherani i držiš bez licence, njegovu daš novome...

 

99.9% SLA dostupnosti, a dosegnuli su i 99,99% već odavno...

 

daš link za 10 mj. 2018 i nikako se ne mogu sjetiti da mi je tada nešto tako drakonski crklo da sam morao hitno povlačiti update...

 

inače update za servere, NIKADA ne stavljaš na produkcijske servere bar dok ne pređu 2-3 tjedna, a dotada googlaš KB problem...

 

uglavnom, nisu u M$ "cveće", ali nisu ni izdaleka jedini krivci za IT sranja...

Bas zato sto radis u takvoj firmi si tako napisao objektivan post, problem je bio u sredini 2017te sa exchangom.

U 11 mjesecu 2018, nisam druge nasao jer se moram vratiti natrag poslu, ali ih je bilo dosta.

 

"Work is underway to migrate Outlook and Office 365 to Citrix for users to enable users to access these services. Microsoft have not provided an estimated time of fix, however, they are currently testing a work around in their test environment which if successful will be rolled out to production."

ovo sta si spomenuo za update je to o cemu pricam, znaci quality control je takav da sam googlas KB, jer su opise KB maknuli naravno i nisu vise siguran u njihovu kontrolu kvalitete. Delay updatovi je bas iz razloga sto im je kvaliteta istih u podrumu, pa kad dobiju feedback od beta testera citaj korisnika mogu reagirati i popraviti, jer nema vise kao sto sam stavio gore u videu odjela za kvalitetu proizvoda kojima je jedini cilj posla bio pronalazak bugova i ispravak istih prije nego budu isporuceni korisniku.

Glavno da je kucni serviser izvukao recenicu iz konteksta i srpda se.

Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 13:55 (Bono).
3 godine
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Friday kaže...
VladRi kaže...

 malo su mi razocaravajuca pitanja tipa "koji podaci se tocno sheraju"... nije bitno koji! Davanje bilo kakve dijagnostike bi trebalo biti na dobrovoljnoj bazi a ne na forsiranoj ... ihmo anyway...

 

Meni je fascinantna ta opcinjenost ljudi time kako ih MS spijunira i "krade osobne podatke". U danasnje vrijeme kad google zna apsolutno sve o gotovo svim zivim bicima na planeti i zna gdje se svi ljudi sa android telefonima krecu, sami DOBROVOLJNO na fejsbuk stavljamo slike sebe i svoje djece, pisemo privatne stvari i tko zna sta... Njih brine to sto MS skuplja dijagnosticke podatke kako se OS koristi.

 

Promjenio je MS pricu 

Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 13:33 (O_O_O).
2 godine
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s

e da, kad smo vec off topic...

 

Da li je netko skuzio da se win 10 poceo extra sporo ucitavati ako nemate ssd? ali bas onako extra extra sporo....

 

Dosao mi komp od kolegice gdje se ona zali da joj komp sporo radi i da se sporo azurira - i ja pitam koliko sporo - i ona "pa update mi je trajao 4 sata ?!?!?!"

 

Anyway, smart diska na 100%, constan transfer rate 50-80MB/s, HDD od 1TB (50 radnih dana), OS cist nema nista na sebi (ima word i net banking)...

 

Stavim ssd sve super radi... Bas cudno... (a znam da je komp prije radi OK)... bo

2 godine
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
O_O_O kaže...
Friday kaže...
VladRi kaže...

 malo su mi razocaravajuca pitanja tipa "koji podaci se tocno sheraju"... nije bitno koji! Davanje bilo kakve dijagnostike bi trebalo biti na dobrovoljnoj bazi a ne na forsiranoj ... ihmo anyway...

 

Meni je fascinantna ta opcinjenost ljudi time kako ih MS spijunira i "krade osobne podatke". U danasnje vrijeme kad google zna apsolutno sve o gotovo svim zivim bicima na planeti i zna gdje se svi ljudi sa android telefonima krecu, sami DOBROVOLJNO na fejsbuk stavljamo slike sebe i svoje djece, pisemo privatne stvari i tko zna sta... Njih brine to sto MS skuplja dijagnosticke podatke kako se OS koristi.

 

Promjenio je MS pricu 

 

Ovoga se i sjecam, mislim da im je google ponudio hranu za macku (koja je kao preminula u textu) :)

11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
VladRi kaže...

e da, kad smo vec off topic...

 

Da li je netko skuzio da se win 10 poceo extra sporo ucitavati ako nemate ssd? ali bas onako extra extra sporo....

 

 

Zivot bez SSD-a nije vrijedan zivljenja...

Freak Show Inc.
2 godine
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s

kad smo vec kod privacy-ja: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/windows-diagnostic-data

 

wow... ovo je jos gore nego sto sam mislo...

 

11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s

-vidim da ponestaje argumenata (tj nema ih..) pa se kreće na 'moju logiku' tj izmišljanje i nabacivanje pa što se uhvati.. ok, može :)

-ako se tebi u firmi od partostina račučnala skršilo 10% tad imaš lošeg admina.. ako si to ti, tad je jasno :)

-tvrdiš nešto? relevantno? ili kako tumačiti bar 8% više od w7...? što s tim? Možemo reći da je xp 53% bolji.. i? Koji os koristiš? Koje app? appsi određuju requirementse, poslovne potrebe, osobni izbor-kućni user može birati, poslovni samo dijelomično. Korisit win7 ako želiš, koristi macos, linux.. u čemu je problem, odgovaram te ili nagovaram na nešto? Kažem li da je win 10 bolji, da mu prdac miriši ili je čudnovati elexir?.. no nasuprot, ti ga kritiziraš, ne radi, ruši se.. pa ok, nemoj ga koristiti imaš izbor + zašto bi za tvoje probleme uzrok bio win ili win10 ili update.. tj update koji krši dokumente i sl tek sad vadiš kao argument tj to nije bio tvoj problem nego AMD.. tj tako pišeš i u nedostatku argumenta sad lupaš bugom-greškom .. da, to je itiotizam, greška, nije ms bezgriješan, ... no kakve to ima veze s temom ili kvalitetom-stabilnosti OSa? Kao da je dostavljač pizze kriv za lošeg kuhara ili obrnuto.. i dalje imaš iste logičke greške, tj uzrok ne tražiš ili tražiš na pogrešnom mjestu, dok ti je jedina želja (neobjašnjiva?) pljucnuti MS ili win10.. (dok istovremeno možeš npr hvaliti win7 kao bolji..). Da mogu birati, koristio bi npr w7 ali ne zato jer je bolji, ne postoji bolji OS, postoji samo onaj koji radi (osim reactos).

 

-obavezan update... da, i to bi želio da je kao u starijim osevima, opcija, ali tako je odlučio MS. (još gore tek dolazi...). To s verzijom tad nema veze, tj kao što sad vidiš s ''istim'' win-10, koji su 'posljednji win' po MSu, zapravo bi ih jednako mogli nazvati +1 za svaki build od prve desetke već desetak, npr win-20, možemo ih nazvati win-2020 tj upravo to je build-datum dva puta godišnje. Pri tome je vista ver.6, sedmica, 6,1, osmica 6,2, .. i tad promjena, 8.1, skok, s 6.3, 6.4 na deset. Tj win 10 su vista+SPovi ili buildovi ili win7 ili win8.. tj to je evolucija i brojčana oznaka verzije koja može biti bilo kakva pa i na preskoke. Današnji win 10 nije isti kao prije godinu-dvije tj od 1703 kreće izmjena, gašenje kompatibilnosti unazad + wintelovo ogrnaičavanje kroz OEMe tj oenmogućavanje installa starijeg osa xp-7 na novi hw.. i zato umjetna rzalika u drivermodelu mada ako nemaš drugi može raditi i driver od XPa (ali postoje smao 32bitni..). To je razlog problema korisnika koji su unazad godinu-dvije instalirali novi/stari win na najnoviji hw tj dok proizvođač ne izbaci driver koji je usklađen s winver-buildom.. a amd je u tome lošiji-sporiji dok je nvidia to riješila mjesec nakon izlaska builda.. oni koji su u međuvremenu instalirali imali su problem, no to nije problem win-kvalitete nego slaganja kockica koje su potrebne, HW-Driver-OS-..soft. Ni jedan OS ne radi na HWu za koji nema driver, tj može u kompatibilnom modu ali tad nemaš fičere a to je osnovno za npr VGA (ili mbo-stabilnost) .. pa na to dodaj kvalitetu chipova, ramova, ili samu seriju boljih-lošijih cpua (jer ni overclock nije jednak nego ovisiš o sreći tj koji chip-tranzistor si dobio u kutiji..).

 

-ako npr OCaš računalo i pretjera, tad se očekivano ruši-smrzava.. jel to problem OSa? Ne, to je problem kvalitete HWa + granica a može biti i postavki, znanja, tuniranja.. pa tako netko s istim-sličnim HWom složi jače, možda i sreća, ali soft-OS je IDENTIČAN 100% .. dok možda cpu nije, no ti optužiš soft-os i ne padne ti na pamet da je možda netko drugi-treći ili onaj tko to slaže uzrok problema? OS je identičan do u byte, moj i tvoj. Skini sad s msove stranice install.. isti je.

+nastavak, jer se i to spomije, ms-acc.. već bila tema, tj samo home i to ne za sve države-regije.. i tad, kažem, skini hr verziju, radi, no i dalje 'majstori-gurui' skidaju us-eng.. jer su tako valjda 'jači'.. ili bolji win. -smiješno/tužno.

-to je ms počeo odavno i odavno je 'fix' isključiti mrežu, tad se pojavi opcija localacc .. no već par godina bar te gluposti-silovanja nema, no to je poslovna odluka MSa, legitimna tj nije to kvaliteta ili greška OSa, nevažno nazovemo li taj os win ili neki deseti ili build.. tj jednako bi bilo s win7. .. a 'razlika' između win 7 i win10 je samo pravna, tj da kao danas imamo samo jedan aktualan win10 (buildovi polugodišnji) tj da je to i dalje pod nazivom win-7.. tad bi i dalje pravno postojala stara pravila, obveze MSa prema korisnicima a to bi uključivalo i model kupnje tj plaćanja licence.. i to će za par godina promijeniti, tj to je cilj, free soft + naplata usluge. Zato imamo brojeve-verzije-buildove, koji bi inače i dalje mogli jednako nazvati win7 ili kako već želimo. Da je i dalje isti broj-naziv + da postoje stari SPovi, danas bi možda imali win7+SP30.. bilo bi isto, osim pravno. Zato postoji win10 + zato j enjegova EULA takva + requirements za update koji je mandatoran dok to u starom win7 nije. Zato jer MS to želi, jer ima cilj.. ne zato jer je to meni ok ali tu ne mogu ništa. Mogu se samo prilagoditi, koristiti ili ne..

-zato MS dijeli đabe win10 (provjeri, možeš skinuti bez keya, instalirati bez keya i koristiti bez keya-aktivacije.. nema triala, nema gašenja.. dok z astarije win 7-8 to ne dozvoljava i dalje te traži key već za download, install i korištenje, pitaj se zašto? Zato jer MS može ako želi dijeliti đabe i opet zarađuje a roadmap mu je preći na naplatu usluge, ne jednokratno licence i zato gura onlineacc, mogu li nešto protiv tog? mogu pljuvati ms ali to nije krvica win i nevažna je verzije-buld, dok je sam soft vječan-nepoderiv pa i i danas može raditi desetljećim astar tetris.. dok ima kompatibilan os tj requirementse)

 

-logika ti je iskrivljena (namjerno) i nedostatak argumenta.. tj kritizirati os iz sasvim pogrešnih razloga ili navoditi rušenje-probleme kao uzrok dok ignoriraš da je uzrok problema koje si navodio sve drugo osim OSa. Ni update nije problem win, nego MSove politike-želje-cilja.. koji je suprotan interesu prosječnog korisnika, no uzaludno je. Koristiš ili ne. Prilagodiš se.. ili ne.

 

edit:

*disklajmer .. text je isključivo za osobe lišene života i ostalih hipofiznih funkcija. Nije za prosječnog juzera, tad bi bile sličice kao u stripu i manje slova-texta.. ovako je samo za one kojima chipovi srastaju s jagodicama prstiju.. :)

C64/TurboModul-OpenSourceProject.org.cn.部分作品为网上收集整理,供开源爱好者学习使用
Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 14:17 (ihush).
2 godine
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Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što sada?

ja igram candy crash sagu i naljutim se kad je nema pri instalaciji winsa...

ravna zemlja i šupalj mjesec... dobim, dobiš, dobi, dobimo, dobite, dobe...
 
7 0 hvala 0
8 godina
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Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što sada?

e jeste ga usrali...

ko ce citat ovu tablu teksta? prije cu proc materijale za pravosudni nego procitat ihushov post.

What could possibly go wrong?
Moj PC  
8 0 hvala 0
11 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Hornet_93 kaže...

e jeste ga usrali...

ko ce citat ovu tablu teksta? prije cu proc materijale za pravosudni nego procitat ihushov post.

 Ja sam čak par ihushovih postova uspio pročitati od-do. jbg, kad sam mazohist po prirodi 

Tigar Krezumica
2 godine
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
fromcelltohell kaže...

 Ja sam čak par ihushovih postova uspio pročitati od-do. jbg, kad sam mazohist po prirodi 

 ja imam disleksiju pa se potpomažem kako slučajno ne bih preskočio red dragocjenog teksta a i zabavno je uz novi ff PiP fičr, preporuka... ovako to izgleda

 

ravna zemlja i šupalj mjesec... dobim, dobiš, dobi, dobimo, dobite, dobe...
11 godina
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Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što sada?

ihush nije osoba, covjek, jedinka... On je umjetna inteligencija, nule i jedinice. Nemamo mi kapacitete da razumijemo obilje koje nam nudi

Freak Show Inc.
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3 godine
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
ihush kaže...

NEPOTREBAN TEKST

 

Nisi u pravu apropri updjeta, tu je uglavnom problem nacina razvoja i decimiranje iliti eliminacija testiranja. Evo jedan fin clanak (malo stariji) sa Ars tehnice od strane bivseg novinara (sad pise u zatvoru).

Formatiranje nije najbolje, ali sa bugovim editorom iz 1995 ne moze bolje.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/microsofts-problem-isnt-shipping-windows-updates-its-developing-them/

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Microsoft’s problem isn’t how often it updates Windows—it’s how it develops it

 

It's fair to say that the Windows 10 October 2018 Update has not been Microsoft's most successful update. Reports of data loss quickly emerged, forcing Microsoft to suspend distribution of the update. It has since been fixed and is currently undergoing renewed testing pending a re-release.

 

 

This isn't the first Windows feature update that's had problems—we've seen things like significant hardware incompatibilities in previous updates—but it's certainly the worst. While most of us know the theory of having backups, the reality is that lots of data, especially on home PCs, has no real backup, and deleting that data is thus disastrous.

 

Windows as a service

Microsoft's ambition with Windows 10 was to radically shake up how it develops Windows 10. The company wanted to better respond to customer and market needs, and to put improved new features into customers' hands sooner. Core to this was the notion that Windows 10 is the "last" version of Windows—all new development work will be an update to Windows 10, delivered through feature updates several times a year. This new development model was branded "Windows as a Service." And after some initial fumbling, Microsoft settled on a cadence of two feature updates a year; one in April, one in October.

 

This effort has not been without its successes. Microsoft has used the new model to deliver useful new features without forcing users to wait three years for a new major version upgrade. For example, there's a clever feature to run Edge seamlessly in a virtual machine to provide greater protection from malicious websites. The Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL), which equips Windows systems to run Linux software natively, has proven a boon for developers and administrators. The benefits for pure consumers may be a little harder to discern—though VR features compatible with SteamVR, improved game performance, and a dark theme, have all been nice additions. While the overall improvements are smaller, the current Windows 10 is certainly better than the one released three years ago.

 

 

This is a good thing, and I'd even argue that some parts of it could not have been done (or at least, could not have been done as successfully) without Windows as a Service. WSL's development, for example, has been guided by user feedback, with WSL users telling Microsoft of incompatibilities they've found and helping the company prioritize the development of new WSL features. I don't believe WSL could have received the traction it has without the steady progress of updates every six months—nobody would want to wait three years just to get a minor fix so that the package they care about runs properly. Regular updates reward people for reporting bugs, because they can actually see those bugs resolved in a timely manner.

 

The problem with Windows as a Service is quality. Previous issues with the feature and security updates have already shaken confidence in Microsoft's updating policy for Windows 10. While data is notably lacking, there is at the very least a popular perception that the quality of the monthly security updates has taken a dive with Windows 10 and that installation of the twice-annual feature updates as soon as they're available is madness. These complaints are long-standing, too. The unreliable updates have been a cause for concern since shortly after Windows 10's release.

 

The latest problem has brought this to a head, with commentators saying that two feature updates a year is too many and Redmond should cut back to one, and that Microsoft needs to stop developing new features and just fix bugs. Some worry that the company is dangerously close to a serious loss of trust over updates, and for some Windows users, that trust may already have been broken.

 

These are not the first calls for Microsoft to slow down with its feature updates—there have been concerns that there's too much churn for both IT and consumer audiences alike to handle—but with the obvious problems of the latest update, the calls take on a new urgency.

 

It's not how often, it's how

But saying Microsoft should only produce one update a year instead of two, or criticising the very idea of Windows as a Service, is missing the point. The problem here isn't the release frequency. It's Microsoft's development process.

 

Why is it the process, and not the timeframe, that's the issue? On the release schedule front, we can look at what other software does to get a feel for what's possible.

 

Two updates a year is more frequent than macOS, iOS, and Android, so in a sense Microsoft is attempting to overachieve. But it's not unprecedented: Ubuntu sees two releases a year, and Google's Chrome OS, like its Chrome browser, receives updates every six weeks. Beyond the operating system space, Microsoft's Office Insider program has a monthly channel that delivers new features to Office users each month, and it manages to do so without generating too many complaints while delivering a steady trickle of new features and fixes. The Visual Studio team similarly produces frequent updates for its development environment and online services. Clearly, there are teams within Microsoft that have adapted well to a world in which their applications are regularly updated.

 

Move beyond the world of on-premises software and into online and cloud services, and we see, both within Microsoft and beyond, increasing adoption of continuous delivery. Each update made to a system is automatically deployed onto production servers once it's passed sufficient automated testing.

 

It's true that none of these projects is as complicated at Windows. Ubuntu may contain a more diverse array of packages, but it benefits from many of these packages being developed as independent units anyway. Windows does, of course, contain many individual components, and Microsoft has done a lot of work to disentangle these. But the fact remains that its scale is unusually large—and unusually integrated. Windows is also, at least in places, extremely old.

 

These factors certainly make developing Windows challenging—but so challenging as to make two releases a year impractical? That's not clear at all. It just needs the right development process.

 

 

Microsoft hasn't exactly revealed the development process being used with Windows 10, but the observable characteristics of the process (the way new features are shipped to insiders, the kinds of bugs that insiders have to put up with) combined with information gleaned from sources within the company betray a process that's flawed—and has a number of key similarities to the process the company used back when there were three years between Windows releases. The timescales are very condensed, but much of the approach to development is unchanged.

 

In the olden days, when product release cycles were two to three years, Microsoft arrived at a process divided into several phases: design and planning, feature development, integration, stabilization. Perhaps 4-6 months of planning and design, 6-8 weeks of intensive coding, and then 4 months of integration (each feature would typically be developed in its own branch, so they all have to be consolidated and merged together) and stabilization (which is to say: testing and bug fixing). Over the course of a product's development cycle, this cycle of phases would be repeated two or perhaps three times; for Windows, there would be three iterations, the first being a prototype, the next two being real. The lengths of the phases might change, but the basic structure was widely used within the company.

 

A few things are apparent from this kind of process. Perhaps most striking of all is that there's surprisingly little time spent actually developing new code: for a Windows release, two stints of 6-8 weeks over an entire three year period. There's a long time between the planning and design stage and actually having a working product. This factor, more than anything else, is why the process would not be described as "agile;" by the time you have something that you can put in front of customers to use, new features have been baked into the final product, making them hard to change in response to feedback.

 

The decoupling of development and bugfixing is also an issue: during the development and integration phases the reliability and stability of the software will take a giant nosedive. The features being integrated are fundamentally untested (because testing comes later), and have never been used with each other (because they were all developed separately in their own branches prior to the integration phase). The mess of software is then beaten into an acceptable shape through the testing, bug reporting, and bug fixing of the lengthy stabilization phase. In this process, the product's reliability should start improving once more.

 

 

 

The new world isn't that new

In the new world, we see the company take perhaps seven or eight months for the full cycle. Though there are only six months between releases, the start of the next cycle happens before the previous cycle is complete—this split becomes explicit to insiders each time the "Skip Ahead" group is reopened.

 

Each update typically starts with a fairly quiet period with few visible changes, followed by several months in which big changes—and tons of bugs—are introduced. A month or so before the update nears release we see a drastic slowdown in the number of changes made and a strong focus on bug fixes rather than new features.

 

As Microsoft employees have described it, the final few months of development are split into a "tell" phase, then a one month "ask" phase.  In the "tell" phase, the Windows leadership are told of the changes being made, with a default policy of accepting those changes. In the "ask" phase, the default switches to rejecting; only truly essential modifications are permitted at this stage, typically as few as a couple of changes a day.

 

So, for example, the first build of the October update (codenamed RS5) was released to insiders on February 14; the stable build of the April update (RS4) occurred two months later on April 16. RS5 didn't receive any significant new features until March 7. Lots of features were added over May, June, and July, before tailing off in August and September, when only small modifications were made. A couple of small features were even removed in August, as they wouldn't be ready in time for the October release.

 

There are certainly some differences in the process here. For example, we see new capabilities appear in the preview builds over many months. This indicates that integration of new features seems to take place much sooner—as the features are developed, rather than all in one big burst of merging at the end.

 

Quality takes a dive

But there are also key similarities. The big, fundamental one is that known buggy code is integrated, and the testing and stabilization phase is used to sort out any problems. This point is even acknowledged explicitly: in announcing a new preview build Microsoft warns that "As is normal with builds early in the development cycle, builds may contain bugs that might be painful for some. If this makes you uncomfortable, you may want to consider switching to the Slow ring. Slow ring builds will continue to be higher quality."

 

We can see an example of this in practice in RS5. Last year's October update introduced a new feature for OneDrive: placeholders to represent files that were stored in OneDrive, but not downloaded locally. Whenever an application tries to open the files, OneDrive will transparently fetch the file from cloud storage and save it locally, without the application ever knowing that the file was initially not available locally. RS5 builds on this to optionally purge cloud-replicated files from local storage if disk space is low.

 

This is a really clever, useful feature, and makes using cloud storage seamless. It's also all new code; there's a kernel driver that provides the glue between the cloud syncing code (used to download files and upload changes) and the placeholders on the file system. There's an API, too (it looks like third parties can plumb their code into the same system to offer their own sync services).

 

 

A reasonable expectation is that Microsoft would have a set of tests around this new code to verify that it works correctly: create a file, check it syncs properly, delete the local copy leaving a placeholder, open the file to have the real file retrieved, delete the file entirely, and so on and so forth. There's a handful of basic operations around manipulating files and directories, and in any kind of respectable agile development process, there will be tests to verify all the operations work as expected, and make sure that the API does what it's supposed to do.

 

Moreover, one would expect any code change that broke those tests to be rejected and not integrated. The code should be fixed, and it should pass its tests, before it's ever merged into the main Windows code—much less shipped to beta testers.

 

And yet, this is not what happened: many of the preview builds had a bug wherein deleting a directory that was synced to OneDrive crashed the machine. Not only was this bug integrated into the Windows code, it was allowed to ship to end users.

 

Test the software before you ship it, not after

This tells us some fundamental things about how Windows is being developed. Either tests do not exist at all for this code (and I've been told that yes, it's permitted to integrate code without tests, though I would hope this isn't the norm), or test failures are being regarded as acceptable, non-blocking issues, and developers are being allowed to integrate code that they know doesn't work properly. From outside we can't tell exactly which situation is in play—it could even be a mix of both—but neither is good.

 

For older parts of Windows that may be a little more excusable—they were developed in an era before the value of automated testing was really recognized, and they may very well not have any real test infrastructure. But the OneDrive placeholders aren't an old part of Windows; they're leveraging a brand new set of capabilities. We might excuse old code being under-tested, but there's no good reason at all that new code shouldn't have a solid set of tests to verify basic functionality. And known defective code certainly shouldn't be merged until it's fixed, let alone shipped to testers.

 

As a result, the development of Windows 10 is still following a trajectory similar to the one it did before Windows 10. Features get merged and stability and reliability drop. The testing and stabilization phase is expected to shore things up and beat the codebase back into an acceptable shape.

 

The inadequate automated testing and/or the disregard for test failures means in turn that the Windows developers can't be confident that modifications and fixes do not have ripple effects. This is what gives rise to the "ask" phase of development: the number of changes that are accepted as the update is finalized has to be very low, because Microsoft doesn't have confidence that the scope and impact of each change is isolated. That confidence only comes with massive, disciplined testing infrastructure: you know that a change is safe because all your tests run successfully. Whatever testing the company has in place for Windows, it isn't enough to earn this confidence.

 

But in other regards, Microsoft acts as if it does have this confidence. The company does have plenty of tests; I've been told that a full test cycle for Windows takes many weeks. That full test cycle does get used—just not on the builds that actually ship. The October 2018 update is a case in point: the code was built on September 15. It went public on October 2. Whatever build of RS5 underwent the full testing cycle, it's not the one that we're actually using, because the full testing cycle takes too long.

 

This is a contradictory posture. It might be OK to run the full test cycle on a slightly old build if subsequent code changes were made with high confidence that they didn't break anything. But if Microsoft had high confidence that those changes wouldn't break anything, it wouldn't have to throttle them so severely in the "ask" phase.

 

 

Here's how to do things properly

The contrast with real agile projects is significant. Take, for example, the process Google uses for its ad server. This is a critical piece of infrastructure for the company, but new developers at the company describe that they've made code changes to fix a minor bug and seen those changes go into production within a day. When the changed code was committed to the source repository, it was automatically rebuilt and subjected to the battery of tests. The developer who owned the area of code then reviewed the change, accepted it, and it was merged into the main codebase, retested, and deployed to production.

 

Of course, this is a little unfair of a comparison; cloud services make it much easier to roll back a code change if a bug is discovered. A Windows change that makes systems blue screen on boot is much harder to undo and recover from. But still, the ad server is a critical Google service—it's how the company makes money, after all—and a bad change could easily cost millions of dollars. The testing and automation that Google has built into its development process means that a developer that's only just started at the company can work on this service and have their changes deployed in production within hours, and do so with confidence.

 

The development mindset is fundamentally different. A new feature might be unstable during its development, but before that feature can be merged into the production code, it has to meet a very high quality bar. Rather than Microsoft's approach of "merge the bugs now, we'll fix them later," the approach is to ensure that code is as bug-free as possible before it gets merged.

 

Use Chrome's Dev channel and usually the only clue that you're not using the release channel is that your icon looks like this.

While cloud applications do afford a certain amount of flexibility, this approach can be used for desktop software. Google has comparable workflows around Chrome, for example. The Chrome development and beta branches do have occasional bugs, but in general their code is close to "release quality" at all times. Indeed, the Chrome team's working principle is that even the very latest version of the code should be release quality. You can use Chrome's development branch as your regular browser and, except for a different icon, you'd likely never know that you weren't using the "stable" branch. The extensive automated testing and reviewing process enables this: throughout its development process, Chrome's code is high quality, without the quality dip and subsequent repair work that we see with Windows.

 

Google has also invested in infrastructure to enable this. It has a distributed build system that builds Chrome on a thousand cores, so a full build can be done in just a few minutes. There's disciplined use of branching to try to make merges easy and predictable. Google has an extensive array of both functional tests and performance tests, to detect bugs and regressions as soon as possible. None of this comes for free, but it's critical to enabling Google to ship Chrome on a steady, regular cadence.

 

Windows' development process has never been great

Microsoft's new development process has, proportionately, a greater amount of time spent writing new features, and a reduced amount of time stabilizing and fixing those features. That would be fine if the quality of the features were higher to start with, with the testing infrastructure to support it and higher standards before new code was integrated. But the experience with Windows 10 thus far is that Microsoft hasn't developed the processes and systems needed to sustain this new approach.

 

The problem is, cutting the number of releases to one a year doesn't really fix the problem either. I often get the feeling that people look back on the old days of Windows development with rose-tinted glasses. But if we cast our minds back to the days of Windows 7 and before, we actually see very similar problems to what we have today. The regular advice was that you shouldn't upgrade to a new version of Windows until Service Pack 1 was out. Why not? Because the initial release would be unacceptably buggy and unstable, and it would take until Service Pack 1 for most of these problems to be worked out.

 

The difference is not that the new approach to Windows development is much worse than it used to be, or that the old process delivered better results; it's that we're seeing that "wait for Service Pack 1" moment twice a year. With each new update there's a point at which Microsoft deems the code to be good enough for corporate users, perhaps three or four months after the initial release of a feature update, and that's our "new" Service Pack 1 moment.

 

As such we're getting the worst of all worlds: from the old Windows development approach, we're seeing releases that just aren't good enough on day one. From the new Windows development approach, we're seeing those releases twice a year, rather than once every three years. That pre-Service Pack instability is with us for much of the year.

 

The fundamental flaw is that destabilizing your codebase by integrating inadequately tested features, and then hoping to fix up all the problems later, is not a good process. It wasn't good when Windows was released every three years, and it's not good when it's released every six months.

 

This isn't the job for Insiders

A secondary concern is the nature of the testing being performed. Microsoft used to have a huge number of dedicated testers, with each feature having both developer and testing resources assigned to it. Many of these testers were laid off or reassigned in 2014, with the idea that more of the testing burden be shifted to the developers creating the features in the first place. The Windows Insider program also provides a large amount of informal testing—with many millions of members, it's much bigger than any of the Windows beta programs ever were.

  

Ninja Cat has been an occasional feature of the Insider program.

It's not certain that the old approach would have necessarily caught the data loss bug; perhaps the dedicated testers wouldn't have tested the particular scenario needed to cause data to be deleted. But it is clear that Microsoft is struggling to handle the bug reports made by the non-expert testers in the Insider program. The data loss was reported as much as three months before the update shipped. Many reports of the bug appear to be low quality, lacking in necessary detail or using improper terminology, but if the company didn't find the problem in three months, it's not at all obvious that an even longer development period would have made a difference. A longer development period would just mean that the bug was ignored for six months rather than three.

 

Microsoft has promised to change the Insider feedback process to allow bug reporters to indicate the severity of their issue and hopefully call more attention to this kind of problem. This might help, as long as insiders use severity indicators appropriately, but it seems insufficient to tackle the central problem of too many bug reports of too low a quality.

 

This relates to the code quality issue. The real strength of the Insider program is the diversity in hardware and software that it can expose Windows to, shaking out compatibility bugs and driver issues and so on. Insiders shouldn't, however, be the primary source for the more bread and butter "does this feature actually work" testing. Often, however, it feels as if that's how Microsoft is using the program.

 

Moreover, the fact that the code quality does take a dip during development means that the preview builds aren't usually suitable for daily driver PCs. They're just not reliable enough. That in turn undermines the value of the Insider testing: insiders aren't, in fact, exposing the new builds to the full range of hardware and software that's out there, because they're not using the builds on their primary machine and with the full range of hardware and software they own and use. They're using lesser-used secondary machines and virtual machines.

 

You've gotta invest in your tooling

Developing a Chrome-like testing infrastructure for something as complicated and sprawling as Windows would be a huge undertaking. While some parts of Windows can likely be extensively tested as isolated, standalone components, many parts can only be usefully tested when treated as integrated parts of a complete system. Some of them, such as the OneDrive file syncing feature, even depend on external network services to operate. It's not a trivial exercise at all.

 

Adopting the principle that the Windows code should always be shipping quality—not "after a few months of fixing" but "right now, at any moment"—would be an enormous change. But it's a necessary one. Microsoft needs to be in a position where each new update is production quality from day one; a world where updating to the latest and greatest release is a no-brainer, a choice that can be confidently taken. Feature updates should be non-events, barely noticed by users. Cutting back to one release a year, or one release every three years, doesn't do that, and it never did. It's the process itself that needs to change: not the timescale.

 

Poruka je uređivana zadnji put sri 15.1.2020 15:23 (O_O_O).
10 godina
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Re: Od danas prestaje podrška za Windows 7 – što s
Friday kaže...
VladRi kaže...

e da, kad smo vec off topic...

 

Da li je netko skuzio da se win 10 poceo extra sporo ucitavati ako nemate ssd? ali bas onako extra extra sporo....

 

 

Zivot bez SSD-a nije vrijedan zivljenja...

IF: ponestane argumenata i nemoš okriviti korisnika da je glup

THEN: sarkazam

sry :)

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